Unoffical Throwing Options - Anyone seen this?

[SeattleDenMom]

A friend of mine sent me this link for some seriously out of control "new" throws... 25 possible throws, including the offical RPS.  

Thoughts???  

http://www.umop.com/rps25.htm

[Darlo]

I think it's a poor attempt at overtly modernising the game we enjoy so much.

But that is just my opinion.

[Fisted Sophist]

Mr. Darlington,

This website represents an extreme version of all that the Theoretical Throws Bureau stands against.  But, you say it yourself in your subject line--these are "Unoffical Throwing Options".  As such, I don't ever forsee them being included in official WRPSS tournament play as 22 of these throws are simply not RPS.

Fisted Sophist
National Executive, Theoretical Throws Bureau
"Rock still beats scissors."

[martinburley]

Computer fight games are well-known to apply RPS-style logic to which move beats which, and often this is RPS-7, or suchlike, i.e. there are more options than in RPS.

My experience of these games is that they're frustrating and stupid and the winner is the guy who knows more of the secret moves and/or can press keys faster. Mostly I just press keys at random and hope.

I think RPS-25 would be similarly frustrating, especially for beginners. And it would be a nightmare to referee - deciding for example whether a player's thrown a "sunbathing spider" (which loses to "cat's paw"), or a "witch's claw" which beats it, or an illegal throw...

[Two Throw Tim]

RPS 25 is a well thought out and rewarding game. Anyone with familiarity with the game could tell you straight up that "sunbathing spider", "cat's paw", and "witch's claw" are not legal moves. It does not require a genius to remember 25 throws. I am sick of people regurgitating the propaganda of the World RPS society in order to come across as intelligent and ingratiate themselves with the so called "masters" of the sport. Of course none of the additional 22 throws from RPS 25 would ever be included in official competition they are different games. This does not mean that RPS players having nothing to learn from RPS 25. I have played a lot of RPS 25, it is not an easy game to learn the details of let alone play proficiently. Try spending a few weeks spotting tells against a competent RPS 25 opponent and then come back to RPS, you'll spot a poorly executed paper a mile off and have a much greater sense of awareness and focus. The willingness to cast aside the accepted dogma about the "Evil's" of playing alternate styles, street RPS, etc was for me the first step towards a much richer and deeper understanding of the game we all love so much.

[R Cohrs]

"And now, even worse news: after days and days struggling to come up with a web of valid logic, one which has a potential of over 151.48 QUINTILLION layouts (around three and a half times more complex than a Rubik's cube), and which would include all 300 outcomes (non-tie) in a graphically pleasing cyclical layout, I had to reverse one or two outcomes from previous games. This is a rather hideous offense, but I just didn't have the octillion-sized stamina to help it. For example, with the splitting of HUMAN into MAN AND WOMAN, only WOMAN is beaten ("TEMPTED") by DEVIL now; whereas MAN EXORCISES DEVIL. In other words, DEVIL no longer POSSESSES HUMAN here, unless you'd like to say DEVIL POSSESSES KAREN BLACK (instead of WOMAN), and then it'd work OK. If you find any other discrepancies, let me know.

Anyway, many of the ten new symbols are taken from popular sources. Remember the "NUKE-COCKROACH-FOOT" game from "That '70s Show?" Well, it's in here somewhere, where their "foot" symbol is now simply MAN or WOMAN here. A lot of folks remember the "ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS-SPOCK- LIZARD" pentavirate found here. Well, with the addition of my ALIEN, and swapping "Lizard" for my similar-looking SNAKE, you'll find most of that game in here too. I even added the much-maligned DYNAMITE gesture. So now you can blow up ROCK and SCISSORS all you like, as long as you don't mind being ENCASED by PAPER, and not being able to "cut wick of" SCISSORS as you might have elsewhere. Also, in deference to the extremely hilarious "Monkey Claw" game played here by a certain infamously overthrown tyrant, I stuck in a claw-gestured MONKEY just for fun (and poop flinging)!

All of these hijinx don't even include the SUN and the MOON, and AXE and BOWL which were supplied by a fan of the site (thanx John!). Each gesture beats out twelve gestures, and is beaten by the remaining twelve. And with that, there is now only a 4% chance of a tie, making this the ultimate decision-making game! Well, aside from flipping a coin, I guess."

Two Throw Tim, thanks for posting.  This statement taken from the website basically says let's just chuck all the crap we can into the game (literally with monkey for poop flinging fun) and use no logic to determine why the throws beat each other.  I write a lot about how video games are intertwined with RPS, as martin pointed out.  RPS 15, 25, etc., always remind me of the classic Mega Man, which was also overtly based on RPS as the founder states in an interview.  This would be RPS 6 then, with Rockman (Japanese version of MegaMan) strong against Cutsman, Cutsman power against Elecman, Elecman power against Iceman, Iceman power against Fireman, and Fireman power against Bombman, Bombman power against Gutsman.  Most of these make logical sense (Electricity beats Ice?), but the later games included stuff like Junkman, Knightman, Tomahawk Man, and while still fun for me to play, they lost all sense of the logic found in the simpler early game. 

In the same way, taking RPS and adding a bunch of random moves can be fun, but it misses the simple logic of the 3 three throws.  It makes the game confusing and pointless to me.  Are you interested at all in learning sign language?  I studied Japanese sign language for a little while, although I can't remember very much.  If you can learn 25 hand gestures just to play RPS, you would certainly excel at sign language. 

Just one more thought, and that's why not play RPS 30, 50, 100, 1,000, etc.  Why stop at 25?

[ScissorSista]

Just looking at the diagram, beautiful & colourful though it is, makes my head spin. How can a beginner possibly remember 25 throws let alone any gambits.

I, Ms Dumbass 2007, have trouble enough with the gambits in RPS in its purest form. Hopefully I won't have any issues with the 3 simple throws at the worlds...otherwise I'll need my dunce's hat and be banished to Sesame Street RPS for good.

On the upside, at least I'd get to meet Super Grover Jefster!

Sista   

[martinburley]

Just one more thought, and that's why not play RPS 30, 50, 100, 1,000, etc.  Why stop at 25?

He didn't. See this link for his 101-throw variant.

[R Cohrs]

Yeah, I did notice the 101 variant.  I guess I should have said, "why not play RPS 1000, 2000, 4000, 10000, etc." 
Hmm, I'm double jointed, I have hitchhiker's thumbs, and I can push out my bones on the bottom parts of my fingers.  I could probably make up some specialty moves that not very many other people could throw and waste the competition.

[Two Throw Tim]

ScissorSista in response to your following statement:

"How can a beginner possibly remember 25 throws let alone any gambits."

Firstly I am not proposing RPS 25 as a game for beginners but as a variant that if studied with an open mind can be a rewarding addition to an advanced player training regime.

Secondly it is not necessary to remember any gambits either in RPS 25 or standard RPS. Any series of three throws in RPS is a "gambit" so what's to remember? If you are referring to the so called "great 8 gambits" you have much to learn, the very conception of these gambits was clearly a gambit in itself aimed at gaining mind-share and limiting the throws of anyone inexperineced or gullible enough to buy into them. Along with the demonizing of alternate varients, and street RPS it is a prime example of the biased propaganda produced by the World RPS Society.

[Franklint]

Unfortunately I agree with the other RPS regulars on the forums.

RPS need not be complicated. One of the main points of RPS is that it is gaming at its core, at its most basic. Going against this wrecks the whole concept.

That being said, I don't think that everything about your variants is stupid. In fact, I think that creating these über RPS variations is a very interesting pastime. This is the kind of random stuff I like doing, and I congratulate you in taking the time to think up all the different gestures and linking them in mostly cohesive manners.

I can't believe how little factual information you are using in your arguments. The Great Eight RPS gambits are not simply

clearly a gambit in itself aimed at gaining mind-share and limiting the throws of anyone inexperineced or gullible enough to buy into them.

. Instead they are eight gambits that have been proven to be the most successful in tournament play. Instead of the RPS Society choosing eight random combinations and hailing them as all-powerful, The Great Eight are simply a guide for beginning players interested in basic strategies that have been observed to have a high success rate, before said players can use psychology and read people all that well.

Whether you choose to believe it, for advanced play of RPS-25 it would be very necessary to remember gambits. Like professional RPS-3, particular combinations of throws would be much more successful than others. Not only this, but there would be many more notable and not notable gambits.

The RPS Society doesn't produce any propaganda, but you can't expect it to embrace some random and overly-complex varient. For example, if you quadrupled the size of a chess board and quadrupled the number of different pieces, and proposed the new game idea to the International Chess Society (which I don't think exists), I can tell you that the society would reject it completely. You can't completely change a game that is loved by lots of people and expect people to like it.

Training for tell-spotting with RPS-25 would be so much work that it would obsolete the possible minor gains. You would have to learn all 25 throws so well that you could work out what your opponent was going to throw simply by seeing what fingers were twitching. Then, when you reverted to proper RPS, none of those throws that you memorised would matter, as they weren't in use. I can't see what you could possibly gain from training in RPS-25.

Despite everything I've said, I will probably have a couple of matches with a friend while we are both looking at the chart, just to see how different it is.

Again, I think it's a cool idea and hobby, but I don't think it can be used in conjunction with regular RPS or held in anything like the same regard.

Cheers,
Franklint

[R Cohrs]

Two Throw Tim
Ha ha ha    The biased propaganda of the World RPS Society?  Demonization of alternate throws?  It's the World Rock Paper Scissors Society, so I think it makes sense to talk about the sport of Rock Paper Scissors.  If it was the World RPS + RPS 10 + RPS 25 + RPS 101 Society, then it would make sense to talk about a skew of different throws. 

I've played different variations of RPS, and I sure don't mind when other people do either.  When I was in Japan and playing Janken, I learned to throw vertical paper, but I'm sure not going to try it at a World RPS tournament.  I even used dynamite with my friends, and played some Pirate, Ninja, Cowboy too.  Changing up the game can be fun, and I really haven't heard anyone here telling you not to play RPS 25. 

I'm not sure what the hostility in your posts is even aimed at.  Everyone that posted just said RPS 25 is overly complicated and confusing, which answers your original question asking for people's thoughts on the subject.   I visited the site, and I suppose I'll paraphrase the quote again which states "the web of logic in ordering the throws is three and a half times more complex than a Rubick's cube, with 300 possible outcomes."  But it really boils down to Win, Lose, or Draw, the same outcome achieved with RPS.  Using 22 extra throws allows for a lot of redundancies that aren't necessary for me to enjoy the game. 

I'm not sure if you're expecting people to spontaneously combust in giddy excitement to hear the news about RPS 25 and start organizing tournaments here or something.  It's not even new news; people have been making extra throw RPS games for quite a while.

[Two Throw Tim]

There seems to be some confusion in regards to my comments. Firstly I am neither the creator of RPS 25 or the originator of this thread. I am just trying to break some of the stagnant thinking that pervades present day western RPS culture. First and foremost I would like to state that I love paper scissors rock to me it is not just a sport it is also an art form. I absolutely agree that the simplicity and elegance of paper scissors rock as a game is what makes it so great. I have no wish for RPS 25 to be endorsed by the World RPS Society or for it to turn into a professional sport. All I have said is that there is some merit to it in and of itself and that it can be a useful training exercise. I'm fine with people arguing with me over whether or not it's a worthwhile training exercise but I have a hard time attributing any validity to such arguments if they come from people who have not given it a fair go. I understand a lot of people are scared by change and new ideas and that is why there has been such a reaction to my comments. My greater purpose here is not to argue any particular merit to RPS 25 (hey I'll even admit it's fun but kind of stupid) but to argue against the narrow minded group think I see going on in the sport. There are a few noticeable exceptions to this such as custardchuk and Master Roshambollah who are capable of seeing things from a much broader perspective.

Franklint thanks for your thoughtful comments but I must take issue with your following statement.

Instead they are eight gambits that have been proven to be the most successful in tournament play. Instead of the RPS Society choosing eight random combinations and hailing them as all-powerful, The Great Eight are simply a guide for beginning players interested in basic strategies that have been observed to have a high success rate

This is the exact kind of nonsense that I stand against. If you read the World RPS Society literature on the matter you will find that even they admit that "There is nothing about these eight that make them superior to any other gambits." (p54 THE OFFICIAL ROCK PAPER SCISSORS STRATEGY GUIDE). Who has proven them to be "the most successful in tournament play"?. Where are the statistics? Even if their are statistics why should these group of throws prove to be any more powerful than others moving forward? I and many others have devised strategies that will annihilate any player who sticks just to the Great Eight. These players are out there and you can spot them a mile off. As soon as a match goes past three throws you see the visual clues in their eye movements or dripping sweat that they either don't know what to do or are deciding on which next "Great" gambit to start on. You don't need three throws to win a set you only need two and that's why they call me Two Throw Tim.

[martinburley]

Two Throw Tim, you make some good points, and it's good to see some open-minded discussion on both sides.

You're right about the Great Eight gambits; the Society acknowledges that those gambits aren't intrinsically superior to any others. They do tend to be among the most commonly played, though you could argue that's in part due to players being aware of them because of their 'Great Eight' status. I myself tend to eschew gambit play, except when I want to avoid being lured into reactionary play.

As for RPS-25, I commented recently on multi-throw versions from a slightly different perspective which you can find here. What do you think about the idea that part of what makes RPS fun to play is the balance between winning, losing and drawing, and that larger-version RPS games like RPS-25 suffer from an imbalance in that respect? As an RPS player, I'm sure you're well aware of the extra tension and excitement that a few rounds of Mirror Play can inject into a match?

[R Cohrs]

Two Throw Tim,
I thought you had started this post, but I didn't see that it was someone else.   Sorry about that.  I visited the RPS 25 site yet again, because you seem to be pretty adamant about the game.  I tried to form the throws and figure out what beats what, but I have a hard enough time finding people to play a game of RPS, let alone a more complicated version, so I can't really even test it out.  I'm just not into the game, but again, if you think it helps your game that's great.  I think playing Nintendo helps my game, which is why I post about the connections I find in games I play. 

I think martin's post thoroughly explains the limited merits that training in RPS 25 could bring. 

Anyway, welcome to the bullboard, nice to meet you, glad to see your passion for the sport.