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Author Topic: World Rankings  (Read 8454 times)
Brad Fox
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« on: September 26, 2006, 12:33:16 PM »

Martinburley's recent excellent post on a new tri-cut tournament system has again got me thinking about the lack of tangible ranking results for RPS on a global scale.

Re-occurring events such as the Philadelphia City League or the MetaWealth RPS leagues have shown that the ability for players to see improvement over time (or chart their precise position against others) can be a tremendous motivating factor (and encourage repeat attendance at events, or touring to more events than one would otherwise).

Many individual sports, such as tennis, figure skating, martial arts, compile detailed ?ranking? lists every year which synthesize results from many tournaments into one global ranking list. Obviously the theory is that, in aggregation, the end results are more meaningful. Such lists are tremendously advantageous when seeding tournaments, or for determining ?national? teams for special events.

Is this something that would be useful to the world of RPS? Many player have (ad-hoc) started referring to their most recent World Championships rankings as ?being nth in the world in 2005?, when really this ignores the many fine players who have demonstrated their skills admirably throughout the year, but perhaps chosen not to attend that particular tournament. By the same token, losing to an established player in your first round at the worlds, in no way imply you are  a weaker player overall than someone with an easier path to an advanced round.

Certainly as the WRPS continues to evaluate it's ?endorsement? and ?sanctioning? guidelines this is an interesting item to discuss as official ?WRPS? ranking points could be given to such events based on their scope and stature. Ie: events which meet certain enrollment levels could be granted an increased number of points for the top ?n? players which would contribute to their world rankings, while ?major? events could grant more points due to their higher status, attendance, and likely level of competition.
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2006, 03:42:56 AM »

This is an extremely interesting topic to raise, Brad. Introducing a rating system for RPS players is something I'd be in favour of (both personally and as head of the SFD) *if* it's implemented well, and done for the right reasons.

I personally would prefer that if we do it, we base it on something close to the English Chess Federation rating system, rather than the type of ranking system that tennis uses. In tennis, ranking points are effectively just rewards for good results, and while they are semi-useful, they're often far from accurate, especially for players who don't play lots of games each season.  

I'll explain how the ECF rating system works, and why I like it (readers who are easily bored might want to skip this bit!):

The ECF system is somewhat similar to the Elo rating system, used in various other sports as well as chess, but the ECF version is much easier to calculate. It works like this:

Any game played in a registered competition (nearly all regional tournaments and leagues, as well as most intra-club tournaments) under standard conditions counts towards a player's rating.

When players win, they score their opponent's rating plus 50 points. (However, if your opponent?s rating differs from yours by more than 40 points, it is taken to be exactly 40 points above (or below) yours. This prevents players improving their rating simply by losing to much better players.)

When players lose, they score their opponent's rating minus 50 points.

At the end of each season, your average score per game is your new rating. (If players have not played a minimum of 30 games in a season, previous seasons' results are included in the calculation, up to a maximum of 30 games or 3 seasons.) Players only need to have played 9 games in the last 3 years for their rating to be published.  (Usually the rating is accompanied by a letter to indicate how regularly the player has played, e.g. A = played more than 30 matches in the past season.)

There are some other details, but these are the main points.

I think this system would be a good one for WRPSS to adopt for these reasons:

It's statistically meaningful: If your rating is 125 and your opponent's is 100, you should win 75% of your games against that opponent. (((100 + 50) * 3 + (100 - 50)) / 4 = 125). (We can adjust the precise figures involved when calculating the initial ratings, to ensure that there's a sufficiently wide range, e.g. a 100+ point range rather than a 10 point range).

It's easy to calculate: Players can follow their progress as they go, and accurately estimate what their true current rating is based on their results for the season. This also helps it gain acceptance, as players understand the rating system and can clearly see that it's fair. Also, the simplicity of the calculations will be appreciated by whichever lucky WRPSS Department gets to implement the system and maintain the ratings.

It's suited to club play as well as tournaments: The system works for league matches, one-off tournaments, and other settings. Players can be regular players, or ones who only go to tournaments, the ratings apply to both. (One of the problems with the otherwise excellent www.rpssuperchallenge.com ladders, in my opinion, is that the rating system is overly biased towards the players who simply play the most games.)

It's fair: It works by rewarding points based on your performance and your opponent's rating. Players don't receive extra 'bonus' points for playing in or doing well in major tournaments. The glory of success at a major tournament is its own reward. Yes, of course, players who do well in tournaments will still see their ratings increase - but this is because they have won several matches against good opponents.

It recognises effort: Someone who's knocked out in the second round will still see their rating increase, if they beat and then lost to two star players, but if they beat a novice and then lost to another beginner, their rating will decrease. That's fair, and addresses the point you made.

It's inclusive: In a tournament, everyone gets rated, from the players who were knocked-out in the first round to the champion. And players don't have to play many matches to gain or maintain their rating. (Though this is where Tri-Cut Tournament format or Swiss-style tournaments could help, by allowing all players to play several matches, helping them reach the requirements more quickly.)

It's extensive: If we went with awarding points only for the major tournaments, this would provide useful rankings of the top players, and allow some scores to be settled (and other rivalries begun), but the rest of the RPS community, like amateur tennis players, would feel left out in the cold. In my opinion, the rating system should extend wide enough to include club tournaments and leagues, and if that's the case, a system like the ECF one would work well.

It respects the best: If you don't take on the top players, you won't be able to work your way up to a top rating. Players who just play in their club tournaments can rise to a certain level, but to reach the pinnacles of the ratings list, you need to play in top competitions, against the best players.


If the WRPSS does decide to roll out a rating system in due course, setting it up would be fairly straightforward. Just collect results for the first season or half-season, and then begin publishing players' ratings based on those results. Or even simpler and quicker, results from the 2004 and 2005 Internationals (and other endorsed or sanctioned tournaments with accurate records for some or all games) could be used to calculate the initial ratings for a significant number of players, so that we 'hit the ground running'. As long as tournament organisers have kept accurate records of players' names and results, this should be fairly straightforward to do.

Updated ratings could be published annually, semi-annually, or after major tournaments. Publishing ratings online on the WRPSS website minimises costs and maximises exposure. Match results could be submitted to the WRPSS either by post or online (probably by giving authorised tournament officials a password to ensure that all results submitted are genuine).


What would it mean for players? Well, players don't *have* to reveal their ratings to their opponents, though it's considered bad form not to. As long as the players record their names on the tournament entry form correctly, the WRPSS will award the points correctly, since we will have records of all players' grades. A player could enter under a false name so as not to lose rating points if he or she performs poorly, but then he or she would miss out on improving his or her rating, so that's probably not a major concern. Throw by throw records are not required, just the match results.

The biggest issue, perhaps, is whether players could collude to artificially inflate their ratings. However, restricting eligibility to officially endorsed or sanctioned tournaments and recognised club competitions should minimise that possibility. We *could* open it up even more by, for example, allowing WRPSS members to submit results of games with other WRPSS members (perhaps if they both email to confirm the result, to avoid disputed results). However, this does open up the opportunity for members to 'throw' games, and though WRPSS members are as honest as the day is long, it's always nighttime somewhere in the world.

The second-biggest issue is whether the ratings *would* in fact be useful. There are two reasons why people might challenge this claim. One is that, "Since RPS is a game of chance, everyone's ratings will even out at around the same level." While it's probably true that there's less range between good and weak players in RPS, there is ample evidence that skill plays an important part, especially at top levels. Furthermore, the scale can be adjusted as mentioned above, to more clearly highlight the differences between mid-range players. And the ratings would provide proof positive that RPS is a game of skill rather than luck, finally silencing all critics of the sport.

The other reason people might question the usefulness of the ratings is that since many players only play a few games each season, their ratings in their first season or two are liable to change rapidly. To address this issue, the letters that accompany the ratings would indicate which ratings are most reliable (more weight being placed on A or B-quality ratings). And since the top-level players play more games, the accuracy of the rating system at the top end would be very high. Also, remember that there is a limit on how many points a player can earn from a match, based on the player's own rating. A low-rated player who beat custardchuk in one match, or even three matches, could not suddenly get a very-high rating, however high custardchuk's rating is (or isn't).

Though there are some issues with how rating systems affect player behaviour, these apply mainly to online games (where players can select their opponents and only take on players they judge to be 'overrated', for example), so this point does not apply to organised tournaments or leagues. Perhaps the most important question in the case of RPS is whether players would come to place too much importance on ratings. Some great RPS Masters do not seek the fame that comes with tournament victories, and instead choose to pass on their wisdom to selected students. These Masters would not appear on the ratings list, so can it truly be said to show who the 'best' players are? And yet, no list could truly do that (suppose one did hypothetically manage to list all RPS players in order of skill; by the time you completed the list, the order would already have changed as some players improve and others lapse). Despite this qualification, the ratings system *would* provide us with an accurate ranking of which competitive RPS players have currently proven themselves to be the best in competitive play (where competitive play = RPS tournaments, leagues etc.).

One remaining issue is which names the ratings would be published under, the players' stage names or their 'real' names? This choice would probably be best left to the players themselves (some may not wish their 'real' names to be used). Though this would likely result in several players being listed under the same name ('Fist of Steel' for example), that shouldn't be a problem as long as the submitted results include the players' 'real' names (confidentially), so that their results are correctly matched with their 'Fist of Steel' persona rather than someone else's.  

I can say that the Strategic Forces Department would be happy to manage the ratings calculations, or analyse past International and other tournament results to compile a hypothetical ratings list from those results as proof of concept. (Since completing the R&D on the Tri-Cut tournament structure, we have some number-crunching lackeys available for new projects, and I'm sure the results would make interesting reading.)

Lastly, although the main motive for introducing a ratings system should be the valuable new service to the RPS community that it provides, there's one final point to consider: creating and publishing a fair and full world ranking system for RPS players would ensure that players, public, media and upstart RPS competitions alike will always remember that the WRPSS is *the* home of Rock Paper Scissors.
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Brad Fox
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« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2006, 12:44:02 PM »

A very well reasoned response Martin, although I'd expect nothing less.

While I generally agree with the comparative value of a so-called ECF ranking system over others, it's a problematic one to apply to RPS. The immediate problem with applying this system to RPS tournaments are threefold:

1. The volume of RPS matches played during a typical tournament
2. The unequal geographic distribution of top RPS players
3. The relatively high number of amateur competitors in any given open event

1. Volume
Unlike competitive chess (which is often a one-on-one affair, or tournaments with very limited membership) RPS tournaments can comprise a significiant number of individual matches. The larger "major" events can easily be composed of over 500 individual matches, and even a tournament of 32 can involve 30-50 matches (depending on structure). For the organizers of these events to track the results of each individual match is an unrealistic administrative burden, especially given how stretched the officials and organizers typically are.

Every year there is some discussion about adopting an electronic scoring system for the major events (especially the worlds) which would automatically  record and tally each individual throw. While this would provide a wealth of data for competitors post event (their throw %'s, %'s of their opponents, and history of each of their matches) the cost of implementing such a system remains prohibitive.

Also typically RPS tournaments are single evening affairs, unlike other sports where "showcase" matches are stretched over days (tennis, chess, figure skating...) therefore any additional administrative requirements can't require overhead during the tournament itself.

2. Geographic Distribution
We also know from RPS data that traditionally there are geographic areas which are better servered than others by professional RPS. For example, thanks to the tireless efforts of C. Urbanus, Philadelphia has more professional tournaments than anywhere else in the world... by a large, large, margin. If you can only obtain world ranking by playing others *with* world ranking, this is going to be much easier in an area with frequent tournaments. By the same token if a new promoter was to set up a new tournament in an underserviced area - it would be nigh impossible, no matter the quality of an attendant, to get listed in a ranking system without the attendance of a player from out-of-town.

3. Amateur Competitors
Third, an element unique to the sport is that of amateur competitors. RPS is one of the few sports which encourages community, hobbiest, and amateur participation in major events. Even "open" golf tournaments have seeder events, and threshold levels which must be reached. While I maintain this is one of the most admirable qualities of the sport, it does mean that many competitors may play entire tournaments against amateurs. It's not statistically impossible that one could win a major tournament such as the IWC without actually facing a single "pro" (if so, kudos to them, as Master Rosh has frequently written - amateurs make for some of the most difficult matches in all of RPS).

Given the three points above I'm not sure how one would administer an ECF ranking system effectively. Not to mention that the obvious extraction would be for ranked players to challenge each other *outside* of sanctioned or endorsed tournament settings, in which case administring such a system becomes markedly more difficult: Anyone in a domino mask can claim to be the Midnight Rider, but only one person plays like him... and I doubt he'd be volunteering information about his whereabouts and match history to verify the outcomes of bar pick-up games.

Conversely, while I agree a "points for results" system does not provide the best possible rankings to begin with, the administration of it is simpler (recognized event organizers simply have to submit lists of the top "n" players... perhaps some baseline points are given strictly for competiton as per the PBRPRPSCLCS), value can be assigned to tournaments in new areas regardless of local "known" players, and players are not penalized if they don't happen to compete against other ranked players in tournaments.

With the exception of the above, I agree with all your points about the relative merit(s) of a ranking system.
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« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2006, 06:31:29 PM »

Brad, thank you for the considered response to my proposal. It's a pleasure to mull over these ideas with someone with your experience and knowledge of the sport.

To respond to the points you raise:

1. Volume

I don't see this as a major problem. The rating system doesn't require the throw-by-throw records, *just* the match result - "Adam Aardvark 1 - 0 Betty Buzzard". Tournament organisers already have to know this to call up the correct player up in the next round. I agree that collecting throw-by-throw stats for all players would be entirely unfeasible, but neither the ECF or the 'reward points' ranking formats require it.

2. Geographic Distribution

I agree with you that 'RPS islands' present a problem. However, it's not insurmountable - and this is where the rating system helps, compared to a 'reward points' ranking system. If we know that an average player with an exact 50% - 50% win-loss ratio has a rating of (say) 1000, we can assign ratings to the players on the RPS island on this basis, so that a player on the island with a 50%-50% win-loss ratio also has a rating of 1000. This would provide accurate ratings to the players in that area.

In doing that, we are assuming that the overall skill distribution of players on that island is roughly similar to elsewhere. (On an island where all the players are extremely talented, the' ratings assigned would underrate the players' abilities.) I think this is a reasonable assumption to make in most cases. Also, note that the 'reward points' system has to face this same decision too when it decides how many points to allocate to different tournaments.

3. Amateur Competitors

As far as the ratings are concerned, amateur players aren't a problem. I won't go into the maths in detail here, but trust me, it would work out. I agree that only the matches played in organised tournaments should be eligible for ratings points, to avoid the 'Who is the true Midnight Rider' problem. This would possibly help to encourage involvement in tournaments, because if one player wants to rise above his enemy in the rankings, he would have to do well in a tournament to do so. It would also help highlight the players who are the best in tournament play specifically, as opposed to friendly games or Street RPS. (Of course, players and fans can continue to have long debates about whether the 'true best' player is the player who tops the tournament-based rankings, or one of the legends of Street RPS.)

I do agree that a 'reward points' rankings system is somewhat easier for the WRPSS to run. It's probably also better at encouraging players to 'follow' the tournament circuit, especially if there is a prize associated with being top of the rankings at the end of the season. However, that would increase the degree to which it's only comparing the top pros - the ones who have the geographical or monetary ability to play in several tournaments to gain extra rankings points.  

Ultimately, the decision of which (if any) ranking system to adopt probably comes down to this:

If we just want a system that helps people see which of the top pros are 'the best of the best', then go with the 'reward points' approach.

If we want a system that every player can feel a part of, and where the ratings reflect the actual skill difference between the opponents, then the ECF-style system is better.  

If we want to keep the 'underground' feel of the sport, with players competing solely for the glory of winning their particular tournament, and fans informally debating who the 'the world's best player' or 'the best tournament player' is, then we should carry on as we are, with no ranking system.
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« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2006, 09:30:34 PM »

Great work fellas,

This idea is certainly worthy of debate.

Quote
however high custardchuk's rating is (or isn't).


This is one of the more problematic areas. I have no idea myself.

Lets take this season.

Last years Worlds, top 128.
( Beaten by an amateur who accidently threw Paper when she meant to throw scissors, and who was surprised as I was when her Rock won.)( Also post tournament victories over Wold semi finalists)

Top 32 in Perth in a sanctioned amateur event, though undefeated in exhibition matches.

Unable to attend Australian qualifiers because I was competing in the North Pole Classic in Norway (Top Eight)
Consequently unable to compete in the Aussie Nationals.

Wins against Finalists from Philly City League but ineligble through lack of pre Finals Tournaments.

Ineligble to compete at the USARPS.


As you can see my year has encompassed many of the potential grey areas of World rankings.

Does a win against quality players in the World Arena negate the effect of loss to an amateur in the Tournament proper?

What weight does a Top 128 in the World Tournament carry given that it is acknowledged that knock out tournaments may not be the best indicator genuine ability due to the short "read" times available.?

What weight does the North Pole Classic carry, against say, the Northern Territory Aussie Qualifiers, let alone the Aussie Nationals? (All three tournaments welcome all comers)

What weight do we give US Tournaments such the Philly League. There is no denying it has quality players going head to head over a long period of time but it essentially excludes International Players who can not get residency. Ditto that other tournament.

Could I get my my rankings up consistently playing small Australian regional Tournaments?

Given my year is fairly typical of many of the top players, all competing in their own spheres of influence, Canada, the US, Norway, England and Australia, to name a few, must we consider each Nationailties skill levels. That is to say that "Is a win in an Australian regional, worth more than a win against the Norwegians, for example? It would be a brave decision to make definitive annual ruling on that.

I do not wish to pour cold water on the idea of a ranking system nor the debate, rather to highlight areas of contention that would need to be ironed out prior to implementation of a Ranking System.

It may be that the system should just be implemented by a panel of experts and then just knocked into place inch by inch, argument by argument, over the next century.

As I often say, players play and administrators administrate. Rarely do the two meet.
In this instance, I need not, as usual, offer any solution but I will criticize any decisions I don't like.
As it should be.

regards
custardchuk
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« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2006, 02:18:22 PM »

Really fascinating thread everybody.

I'm hoping that during the quiet(er) Winter months RPS radio can devote some time to the discussion of some of these issues which (should be) of interest to the RPS community. Lots of food for thought here all around.

AAA
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