What's really a 'tell'?

[Aphelios]

Hello all RPS players!

First, I'd like to say that English is not my main language, nor have I ever tried to do an English curse before. So what I say may sound ridiculous to you.

Well, as the topic title say, there's something about "tells" I just can't get. I really appreciate RPS art, and, of course, I don't think it's a lucky game. I've read many, many times, that there's a chance of the opponent to simple tell you, subconsciously, the next throw he's going to do.

I play matches all the time with very diffrent kind of person, and their positions are always the same, when I try to catch a tell: They staring at me with a closed fist, and nothing more. I must point that they're not experienced players, and some of them throw randomly.

Could you give to us, experienced RPS player, some examples of tells you've catch? This would help to understand a lot more about the game dynamic. Thank you for your attention.

[R Cohrs]

Hi Aphelios,
   Good question.  One tell that I've noticed is a friend I play against who almost always opens Rock.  I also noticed that he almost never plays Paper, so I changed my strategy to open with Paper and play Rock heavy.  Master Rosh uses a distraction technique by priming with both hands, and it would seem that he plays paper often while doing so, floating the paper above his opponent's head.  The Paper Tiger seems to consistently play a throw in sequence (i. e. RRR), but seems to break after about 3 throws. 

Beware though, because both Rosh and the Tiger have no problem adapting their play.  A real expert will analyze their own game as much as their opponent's, and constantly adapt to play their strengths against their opponents weakness.

Tells in RPS can be hard to spot, but the more individual style a player has, the more accessible their tell.  Sometimes people even develop tells for fun or to throw their opponent off.  When playing ScissorSista, I refused to let her beat me with scissors, so I would always play Rock or Scissors for game point.  This was done merely because Sista used the Scissors in her name, and I didn't want to lose to her name-sake throw. 

Studying your opponent's game is really the best way to notice tells.  Look for something unusual; does your opponent bite her lip before throwing rock, or scratch his head before scissors, or change her stance before paper?  Master Rosh gave me some advice: look your opponent in the eye instead of at his hands.  While you may expect your opponent to show their tell with their hands, body language can give away so much more.

[martinburley]

Welcome, Aphelios. Whereabouts are you from? One of the things I like the most about RPS is its universality - people play it (or a version of it) in nearly every country in the world.

R Cohrs made some good points in his reply. One thing that is worth making clearer, though, is the difference between patterns and tells.

What are patterns and tells?

Patterns and tells are both forms of information.

Patterns are information you get from the choice of throws your opponent makes. Examples of patterns you might notice your opponent following:

- always opening with Rock
- never repeating a throw if he just lost with it
- often repeating Paper twice, but not a third time
- throwing Rock on match point (when the scores are tied and the next throw wins the match)

Tells are any other useful information you get from your opponent. This could be through how they stand, what they say, or subtle facial movements that you can often only pick up on subconsciously. Examples of an opponent's tells might include him:

- blinking when he's about to repeat a throw
- shifting his stance when he's about to change throws
- throwing Paper whenever he says "I dare you to throw Paper!"
- growling like an angry bear before he throws Rock
- throwing Rock next, whenever he throws a palm-up Paper ('Feed the Pony' style)

These tells give you a direct insight into what your opponent is likely to throw (or not throw) next. The final example is a tell, rather than a pattern, because the information comes not from what he threw, but from how he threw it.

Tells can also reveal more indirect information. For example, you might notice your opponent:

- becoming more talkative at times when he's particularly unsure what you will throw next
- muttering to himself if he's 'scripting' (following a pre-chosen sequence of throws), and trying to remember what to throw next
- scratching his head when his strategy isn't working

These kind of tells don't directly indicate what particular throw he will throw next, but they can still be useful to notice, especially in long-format matches. For example, if you picked up on your opponent's scissor-exclusive strategy at the start of the match, giving you a 4-2 lead, and then your opponent scratches his head, you know that he may be about to change his tactics.

How should you use patterns and tells?

Generally, it's more useful to focus on spotting patterns rather than tells. This is because patterns recur time and again, even during a single match, while many tells are too specific to be useful very often. (For example, you may have noticed your opponent throws Paper after he yawns, but since RPS is such an exciting sport, he might only yawn one time in every ten matches.) Also, patterns tend to re-occur across various opponents more often than tells do.

A few examples of patterns that novice players often follow:

- Throwing Rock most often, and Scissors least often
- Rarely throwing the same throw three times in a row
- Changing their throw if they just lost (e.g. throwing Scissors or Paper after losing with Rock)
- Always switching down (Rock - Scissors - Paper) or up (Rock - Paper - Scissors)

On the other hand, if a player is unaware of his or her tell, that tell can linger in their play over years, even decades, so tells can give you a very profitable edge over a regular opponent.

Because different people have different tells, it's better to focus on developing your general powers of awareness, and picking up on your opponents' uniquenesses, as R Cohrs says, rather than have a 'list of tells' that you look for in all your opponents. That said, here are a few examples of tells that you might notice novice players doing:

- Clenching their fist tightly if they're about to throw Rock
- Shifting their stance when they're about to change throw
- Starting the next prime quickly when they're going to repeat their previous throw (or pausing when they're about to change throw)


It's vital, when playing experienced RPS players, to remember R Cohr's other point - that players can deliberately develop tells to mislead their opponents. An example: occasionally in the early stages of a match, I deliberately lean forward towards my opponent aggressively as we prepare to prime, and then throw Rock. If my opponent notices this tell, when it comes to the crucial throw, I lean forward but throw Scissors.

For both patterns and tells, it's all about awareness. If you notice your opponent's patterns and tells, you can exploit them, by reading your opponent. If you notice your own patterns and tells, you can avoid them, to make yourself less readable. This is one reason why training with others is so valuable - you can often notice and point out someone else's tells more easily than you can notice your own, so you learn about your tells from each other.

Once you know about a particular tell of yours, you have a choice. You can either try to eliminate it from your play, or you can continue doing it, but use it to your advantage. That can be risky, because to trick your opponent, you have to stay aware of your tell. If you do it subconsciously, you're open and vulnerable to a sharp opponent. And if they know you know about your tell, then it gets increasingly complex, in line with Sicilian reasoning: "If he knows I know he knows I shift my feet when I change throws..."


Finally, I want to echo Master Rosh's advice to R Cohrs. Look people in the eye. And trust your intuition. Intuition isn't just guesswork - it's your brain doing what it's evolved to do - spotting patterns subconsciously and reacting to them effectively. Trying to master patterns and tells with your rational mind alone is like trying to win a 100m race by hopping. Great RPS players don't out-think their opponents, they outplay them.

[Aphelios]

Thank you for your replies!
I'm from Brazil, a country which I plan to leave someday.

Well, patterns was something I was really familiar with. It's on patterns that my strategy is based on. Since I'm an unexperienced player, I can't count on tells; Maybe this skill develops with time.
 
But there's a problem: People here play in a really cold way(?). Let me explain: When I watch any RPS video of Americans (for example) playing, I realise that there's a huge difference in their style. Brazilians doesn't seem to change their behavior. Never. They're always in the exactly same position, as I said: a closed fist, a standart motion. Their prime doesn't seem to change too: It's very synchronized. So I just can't catch any kind of information, besides the patterns, which they can't hide. Probably, I'm wrong. Probably their behavior change, but not so intensively that I can spot. Perhaps Brazilians have steely nerves, but nothing that I can't see with training.

Martinburley, your comment about intuition really caught me in surprise! Does the brain catch subconsciously information from our opponents and send us this information subconsciously too, in a "intuition" form? I tend to interpretate intuition as a mystical word, not so neurological as you were proposing.

There's something that made me angry for a couple days. I was playing with my friend, he began with RPS later than me. Although that day I lose several matches, wasn't he who made me deeply sad. In the same day, he found a colleague, a 19 yo girl. When she saw we were playing RPS, she asked to play with us. We taught her the simple hand-position for each movement. The rules she already knew, although she never played RPS seriously. I played with her 4 matches. I lose 3. I was shocked. My friend played 3 matches, and lose all. Lately I asked her: "What's your strategy?", and she simple answered: "Pure luck, or intuition, whatever you prefer to call". I still don't comprehend how could she massacrate us that day. Does she is a very lucky woman, or does her intuition caught our tells?

I'm really thankful for your attention, guys. Your answers really opened my eyes to see how vast is the RPS field.

[martinburley]

Martinburley, your comment about intuition really caught me in surprise! Does the brain catch subconsciously information from our opponents and send us this information subconsciously too, in a "intuition" form? I tend to interpretate intuition as a mystical word, not so neurological as you were proposing.

The short answer to your question is 'yes'. I'll write some more on this soon (a little busy today, but it's definitely an interesting and important topic to discuss). In the meantime, you might want to take a look at a couple of other posts here on the Bullboard that touch on the topic, see for example the Intuition Training post by Master Rosh, and my post about a research study that shows too much (conscious) thinking can be counter-productive.

[srn347]

Isn't a tell when your opponent throws too early and gives easy signs to what they will throw(e.g. throwing fan-paper way up high around the final prime)?

Welcome, seekers

srn347

[R Cohrs]

Yes, that sounds like one helpful example of a tell coming in as poor form.  It would definitely work to your advantage to develop your skills in learning tells like that one, and it sounds like you're keeping your eyes open.

[srn347]

Thanks. That example actually came from rosh's videojug video. Anyway, it is also important to recognize "false tells" such as thinking they will throw rock when they actually threw scissors at the last moment(usually some form of shadowing or cloaking).