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Author Topic: OFFICIAL RULING REQUESTED - THE ROLLED ROCK  (Read 1924 times)
Franklint
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It's all in the wrist.

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« on: January 24, 2010, 10:00:46 AM »

My fellow RPS scholars,

Following in the wake of (read: ripping off) my esteemed colleague martinburley, I now present a further advancement in micro-strategy (tactical variance executed at an approach, or point-of-delivery level).

For years, the RPS world has known of the sneaky and somewhat cocky Feed the Pony method for delivering one's Papers. This often-unexpected play pushes an opponent off balance while poking fun at his or her inability to hand-read with the necessary haste.

This was followed up by the calculating martinburley, who developed his own style of playing Scissors, known as Twisted Scissors™. This alternative, and yet apparently legal, delivery consists of a traditional Scissors complemented by a 180° twist of the wrist. This discovery sent shockwaves through the community, and took its inventor's game to a whole new (read: competent) level.

While being unable to claim that my own addition to the field of micro-strategy will receive anywhere like the amount of attention as its predecessors, I am sure you will agree that it finally brings balance to the area, giving Rock its own piece of the pie.

It is known as the Rolled Rock (or Rock 'n' Roll amongst the inner circle). This can be used thus: "(s)he just used a Rolled Rock", "(s)he just Rolled his/her Rock", "(s)he just played some Rock 'n' Roll" (I especially like this one, with its double-meaning).

Delivery of a Rolled Rock is simple. The priming phase remains unaltered, as does the majority of the approach phase. However, towards the end of the approach, the player will need to prepare his or her body for the upcoming muscular exertion. During the delivery phase, the player Rolls his or her wrist (and presumably arm) in an anti-clockwise (clockwise for left-handers) direction. The aim here is to exit the spin with one's Rock spun 180° (with the thumb on the bottom of the outstretched hand). This confuses the opponent, and adds a touch of class to the game of the player.

While this throw is perfectly legal during civilian games, I would like to formally request an investigation by the officiating department, regarding its suitability for tournament play. Unfortunately I don't have my Strategy Guide in front of me, or I could do the work of dozens of paid staff all by myself.

Please spread the love that is Franklint's Rock 'n' Roll, and remember, folks, you saw it here first!

In studious courtesy,
Franklint
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martinburley
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flow with the throw

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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2010, 01:16:59 PM »

From the Official Rules (Section 4.0):

Quote
Rock: represented by a closed fist with the thumb resting at least at the same height as the topmost finger of the hand. The thumb must not be concealed by the fingers.Note: To accommodate different throwing styles, it is considered legal for the first knuckle of the thumb to point downward.

The legality of Rolled Rock seems to depend on how the last sentence of that quote is interpreted. A conservative reading would hold that it merely allows for wrist adduction i.e. for the hand to be angled forward slightly in delivery. A more liberal interpretation however would be that it implies the whole hand can be turned upside down (which would certainly result in the knuckle of the thumb pointing downward). This reading argues that the qualification in the note, by allowing the knuckle to point downward, implicitly overturns the requirement to have the thumb 'at the same height as the topmost finger'.

I assume you submitted form CO4-55X(b) (along with the appropriate documentation) as part of your request for an official ruling. In past test cases, the World Rock Paper Scissors Society Supreme Rules Committee has often shown a 5-4 conservative majority ruling on rules interpretations. However, the recent death of Major Frederick Smithstanson and the imprisonment of Gillythwaite Eckhart meant the Rules Committee appointed two new members last month (Harold 'Harry' Harrington and Cotswold Bagpuss), and it's not clear which way they lean, or how much sway Brad Fox holds over the Court following his de facto coup of sorts last year. So you may be in luck.
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2010, 01:39:29 PM »

This was followed up by the calculating martinburley, who developed his own style of playing Scissors, known as Twisted Scissors™. This alternative, and yet apparently legal, delivery consists of a traditional Scissors complemented by a 180° twist of the wrist. This discovery sent shockwaves through the community, and took its inventor's game to a whole new (read: competent) level.

I take exception to a couple of points you make here.  In the first place, Burley's use of "Twisted Scissors" didn't so much send shock waves through the community.  If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, the Twisted Scissors remains an unflattered micro-strategy; it has yet to be repeated by any RPS player I have ever seen.  Also, though it is tempting to say that Martin's game has not yet increased to a general recognized level of competency, no one can really say.  Given his performance at the 2010 World.s where he was out of the competition before delivering his first throw, it is difficult to say at what level he currently plays.

It is known as the Rolled Rock (or Rock 'n' Roll amongst the inner circle). This can be used thus: "(s)he just used a Rolled Rock", "(s)he just Rolled his/her Rock", "(s)he just played some Rock 'n' Roll" (I especially like this one, with its double-meaning).

Potentially a triple-meaning, as the term "rock and roll" was slang for "sex" in the black community by the earliest 20th centry (appearing in popular music such as Trixie Smith's "My Man Rock's Me With One Steady Roll," released in 1922.

While this throw is perfectly legal during civilian games, I would like to formally request an investigation by the officiating department, regarding its suitability for tournament play. Unfortunately I don't have my Strategy Guide in front of me, or I could do the work of dozens of paid staff all by myself.

As de facto Director of the DC Metro Office, I'm used to doing the work of dozens of paid staff all by myself.  The Society used to post the "Official Rules of the Grand Sport of RPS" prominently on the main page of worldrps.com, with a link on the top banner.  They no longer do this, for reasons that remain unclear.  Perhaps they were tired of other indie tournaments appropriating the rules for their own purposes.  In any case, you can still find a copy of the abridged rules with a tiny link to "game basics" on the left-hand side of the main page of worldrps.com.  It is conveniently filed at http://worldrps.com/index.php/faq/images/rpsver3/gambits/2007-trading-card-series/rps-news-and-notes/tournament-news/video/modules/mod_rokajaxsearch/themes/light/game-basics (images?  gambits?  trading card series? news and notes?  why are the rules of RPS hidden THERE?)

In any case, the position of the Society on the correct way to throw rock is: 
Quote
Rock: represented by a closed fist with the thumb resting at least at the same height as the topmost finger of the hand. The thumb must not be concealed by the fingers.Note: To accommodate different throwing styles, it is considered legal for the first knuckle of the thumb to point downward.

Rolled Rock in many ways conforms to Society rules:  it is represented by a closed fist, and the thumb is not concealed.  However, the thumb clearly would not rest at the same height as the topmost finger.  Conceivably, one could rest one's thumb alongside the pinky finger instead of the index finger; at the throw's execution, the pinky would be the "topmost finger" and therefore, Rolled Rock would be a legal throw. 

However, it is difficult to imagine many players adopting this method; the thumb displacement seems like a total pain in the ass to me.  "Natural" Rolled Rock (with the thumb alongside the index finger) would still be legal in casual or Street Play, and it seems to me that if you were to rename the throw "Rolling Rock" you might be able to get a decent sponsorship from the American beer company of the same name. 

I would, however, like to commend you for creation of the term "micro-strategy" to refer to "tactical variance executed at an approach, or point-of-delivery level."  In much research, that which is found is rarely that for which one searched.  In seeking Rolled Rock, you have created the broader field of Micro-Strategy, one that I feel will inspire many RPS researchers for centuries to come.
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martinburley
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flow with the throw

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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2010, 03:15:38 AM »

Gotta agree with you there, LtheKitsune. Can't blame Franklint for wanting to get himself a signature move, but I think the different styles of delivery are (since the advent of my Twisted Scissors) well mapped out now. Harry Haslam pioneered the Rolled Rock back in 1923 (at a time when there were several competing rulesets) and his short career clearly shows the strain that it places on the wrist.

Franklint, I'd suggest you look beyond single throws and trademark a variation on a gambit. For example, no-one's made the "Sideways Staircase" their own yet. That's a Feed the Pony Paper, followed by a Twisted Scissors, followed by a Sideways Rock.

Or if you want to push the envelope a bit further, how about a Rebel Bureaucrat? Starts with a Feed the Pony Paper, then Normal Paper, then Vertical Paper (deliberate foul, but sure to throw the opponent off their game).

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Franklint
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It's all in the wrist.

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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2010, 09:23:25 AM »

Wonderful replies, gentlemen. It is pleasing to me that you all got so much out of my invention. I will take the time now to respond to your comments personally.

Quote from: martinburley
The legality of Rolled Rock seems to depend on how the last sentence of that quote is interpreted. A conservative reading would hold that it merely allows for wrist adduction i.e. for the hand to be angled forward slightly in delivery. A more liberal interpretation however would be that it implies the whole hand can be turned upside down (which would certainly result in the knuckle of the thumb pointing downward). This reading argues that the qualification in the note, by allowing the knuckle to point downward, implicitly overturns the requirement to have the thumb 'at the same height as the topmost finger'.
As I see it, we are currently in a changing world. Similarly to how video rental agents were required to update from VHS tapes to DVDs in order to stay relevant and in the business, the WRPSS needs to view such matters with an open mind to keep up with current trends. Much of the youth today view the Rolled Rock as a welcome change to the "monotony" of RPS play.

Quote from: martinburley
I assume you submitted form CO4-55X(b) (along with the appropriate documentation) as part of your request for an official ruling.
This made me chuckle. Apparently you are not aware that the CO4-55X(b) form became redundant several years ago. But yes, I have filled out and submitted the current equivalent. When next you plan to take a query to the World Rock Paper Scissors Society Supreme Rules Committee, make sure to ask for the J-105(IV) form, rather than the CO4-55X(b). The administration staff have been laughing at you behind your back for quite some time, I'd wager...

Quote from: martinburley
In past test cases, the World Rock Paper Scissors Society Supreme Rules Committee has often shown a 5-4 conservative majority ruling on rules interpretations. However, the recent death of Major Frederick Smithstanson and the imprisonment of Gillythwaite Eckhart meant the Rules Committee appointed two new members last month (Harold 'Harry' Harrington and Cotswold Bagpuss), and it's not clear which way they lean, or how much sway Brad Fox holds over the Court following his de facto coup of sorts last year. So you may be in luck.
Ah, good info. While of course upset to hear of the demise of Smithstanson, I am glad to learn that the law has finally caught up with Eckhart. In any case, getting some new blood into the Committee can only be a good thing at this stage (refer to my points above). Perhaps Rolled Rock can act as a new test to feel out the current feelings of the Committee. We will see. I convinced the chairman, Valencia Petrekovish (another update of which you may not be familiar), to notify me directly with the progress of my case. This will enable me to report back to you, the academics.

Quote from: one Stu Vessant
I take exception to a couple of points you make here.  In the first place, Burley's use of "Twisted Scissors" didn't so much send shock waves through the community.  If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, the Twisted Scissors remains an unflattered micro-strategy; it has yet to be repeated by any RPS player I have ever seen.
Good call. But then, we can't expect too much from the lad.

Quote from: one Stu Vessant
Also, though it is tempting to say that Martin's game has not yet increased to a general recognized level of competency, no one can really say.  Given his performance at the 2010 World.s where he was out of the competition before delivering his first throw, it is difficult to say at what level he currently plays.
I do not doubt that martinburley has reached a level of relative competency. Numerous pieces of evidence exist to support this fact, including his exceptional skill at Online Fantasy RPS and various reports of reasonable success in tournaments and against skilled players. Remember that even the hardened professional cannot win every tournament.

Quote from: one Stu Vessant
Potentially a triple-meaning, as the term "rock and roll" was slang for "sex" in the black community by the earliest 20th centry (appearing in popular music such as Trixie Smith's "My Man Rock's Me With One Steady Roll," released in 1922.
Good to know. RPS is full of sex scandals as it is, so cut back on this third use whenever possible.

Quote from: one Stu Vessant
Rolled Rock in many ways conforms to Society rules:  it is represented by a closed fist, and the thumb is not concealed.  However, the thumb clearly would not rest at the same height as the topmost finger.  Conceivably, one could rest one's thumb alongside the pinky finger instead of the index finger; at the throw's execution, the pinky would be the "topmost finger" and therefore, Rolled Rock would be a legal throw.
A nice alternative, but it's extremely uncomfortable. We should only settle for this method if the Committee rejects Natural Rolled Rock.

Quote from: one Stu Vessant
it seems to me that if you were to rename the throw "Rolling Rock" you might be able to get a decent sponsorship from the American beer company of the same name.
More good input. I'll look into this. I might draw the line at "McDonald's Rock" however. I have my pride.

Quote from: one Stu Vessant
I would, however, like to commend you for creation of the term "micro-strategy" to refer to "tactical variance executed at an approach, or point-of-delivery level."  In much research, that which is found is rarely that for which one searched.  In seeking Rolled Rock, you have created the broader field of Micro-Strategy, one that I feel will inspire many RPS researchers for centuries to come.
Thanks, Stu Smiley. You know me, always glad to benefit the community. I can see huge potential for this area as well.

Quote from: martinburley
Harry Haslam pioneered the Rolled Rock back in 1923 (at a time when there were several competing rulesets) and his short career clearly shows the strain that it places on the wrist.
Being very aware of plagiarism, I trawled the archives for several days before announcing my discovery, and found no mention of Haslam. From this we can draw two conclusions. One is that the powers that be deemed his life a scourge on the history of the sport (perhaps thanks to his sacrilegious throw invention, perhaps due to his short career, perhaps due to both), and wiped him from the books. Two is that he never existed. One must meditate deeply on this.

Quote from: martinburley
Can't blame Franklint for wanting to get himself a signature move ... Franklint, I'd suggest you look beyond single throws and trademark a variation on a gambit. For example, no-one's made the "Sideways Staircase" their own yet. That's a Feed the Pony Paper, followed by a Twisted Scissors, followed by a Sideways Rock.

Or if you want to push the envelope a bit further, how about a Rebel Bureaucrat? Starts with a Feed the Pony Paper, then Normal Paper, then Vertical Paper (deliberate foul, but sure to throw the opponent off their game).
Wow. I'm kind of insulted that you think my motivation is anything less than noble. After Thomas Edison sold the first lightbulb, did people say "I can't blame Tom for wanting to get himself a signature invention"? I believe their response was more akin to "thank you for this amazing discovery!". I don't think I deserve the former response, thank you very much. Like Isaac Newton, when the apple dropped on my head, I simply had to share my epiphany.

I will update with the progress of my request through the system.

May the sounds of joy ring throughout the land,
Franklint
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 09:27:04 AM by Franklint » Logged

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Brad Fox
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2010, 05:51:57 PM »

I'm not sure this needs an official ruling, per se, as - while there's certainly a couple of interesting specific points brought up, it's not actually a new issue.

For as long as I've been around the official position on the rock wording is that any amount of adduction or abduction of a rock is allowed in competitive play, and a full 180 degree turn would just be an extreme form of this. The "top finger" addendum was originally brought in to address the brief "faux dynamite" fad and really doesn't matter provided the rest of the rock form is kept. At least I can't recall it ever being invoked in my entire career with the society.

Practically, the issue of implementation isn't really one of a(b/d)duction but of completing movement before hitting the "horizontal plane". Technically throws are to be complete by the time the forearm is at a 90-degree angle with the players body (or parallel with the floor if the player is unusually positioning their torso beyond standing relatively straight). This makes it very, very, difficult to a(b/d)duct a rock more than 45 degrees without wild contortions with the elbow - which would be detrimental to maintaining an even priming speed, and the ability of the player to match the flow of play (a potential penalty).

However, much like baseball umpires and strike zones, each RPS referee has a slightly varying latitude on what I like to call the "throw zone" (or degree of allowance on a "horizontal plane". For example I, personally, defer to flow of play over a strict horizontal plane. If both players seem comfortable with horizontal planes short (or, more likely, longer) than a strict horizontal plane - I'm willing to let it go - even as significantly as a 40 degree lattitude - as it gives more room for distinct character and flavour to matches.

That being said, players wishing to try unique deliveries must make sure that they can be delivered on a strict horizontal plane, if needed, without too much contortion of the elbow, or alteration of the final priming speed - as that's something that a referee that calls a tight "throw zone" will be all over (and within their right to do so).

Hence this, as with many strategies involving non-traditional deliveries, really comes down to a "Use at your own risk" scenario... which you all likely knew already.
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Franklint
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It's all in the wrist.

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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2010, 04:14:01 AM »

Many thanks to Brad for the lovely clarification. I am glad to know that my Rolled Rock has passed Society scrutiny. It seems the opinion of the Committee since martinburley's test cases has changed. Apparently my violent threats pitch have has proved successful.

Also thank you for reporting the Committee's decision directly into the appropriate thread for us all to see. I imagine that most of the old members had no idea about its existence, and I trust that you pointed it out to them. The traditional, snail mail, method of response would no doubt have taken much longer.

With Brad's timely announcement, I can now officially cut the ribbon and open Rolled Rock up for both amateur and competition play *snip*. Watch your opponents squirm under your revolutionary new throw style. En garde!

Cheers,
Franklint
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-Winner of the Best New Bull Boarder of 2007 award.
-First ever Expert RPS Player born of the Roshambollah Training Systems RPS program.
-First ever Australian to lose to a Norwegian in competition play.
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